IRIN Webspecial: A Decent Burial

Interview: Hasan Shire Shaykh, co-director of Dr Isma'il Jum'ale Human Rights Centre, Mogadishu

The Dr Isma'il Jum'ale Human Rights Centre was first established in Mogadishu in July 1996. It has since grown in stature and become "part of the worldwide human rights movement", says co-director Hasan Shire Shaykh. It issues reports on abuses in Somalia and receives support from a number of international human rights bodies and donors. The organisation was established on 22 July 1996 to commemorate the sixth anniversary of Dr Isma'il Jum'ale, a prominent human rights lawyer and defender under the former dictatorship of Muhammad Siyad Barre. After the regime collapsed in 1991, the country was divided up under warring clan-based faction leaders and remained without a recognised government until the election of Interim President Abdiqassim Salad Hasan in Djibouti-hosted peace talks in August, 2000. But established autonomous regional administrations in Somalia rejected Abdiqassim's Transitional National Government (TNG) - including the self-declared state of Somaliland, northwestern Somalia, which complained that "known war criminals" were part of the new authority.

QUESTION: Do you think the new government should as a matter of credibility hold trials for war crimes?

ANSWER: It depends where you are starting. In Somalia, over a period of 31 years ... a system was used to abuse the Somalis. The taxes people paid were used to send planes to bombard civilians in Hargeysa, in Galkayo, then in Mogadishu and Kismayo. Then, human rights went into a crisis with warlordism. Now, those groups have to be accountable. A lady who has been raped, bombarded, who went into a refugee camp in Ethiopia, came back again, had some of her children die on the way, again becomes a refugee - twice - thrice - then she goes to Hargeysa to live in a house with the roof blown open... needs to be told who has done that against her. Until she knows the truth, no reconciliation will take place in the true sense. Some faction leaders, administrators, ministers, generals, security people, have to take that responsibility. They have to tell the truth about what happened. We say account now, not tomorrow.

There are two ways. One is to establish a truth finding commission which can question everybody, without immunity, whether parliamentarian, or minister, or president. The other way is to set up a court system based on justice. Then each and every person or group who has committed abuses can go be taken to court with evidence, and can be prosecuted.

Q: Have you had any working contact with the new government?

A: Yes. In Djibouti we had a workshop organised by UNESCO and local partners. We had a lot of things we wanted to put to the former government officials, the security people, and the Islamic fundamentalists. When we faced them collectively; there was a great variety of opinion. ?The majority came across as human rights supporters. There are people who want accountability across the spectrum - right from the north to someone like Omar Masale Haji, who is a general from the former regime of Siyad Barre. They supported the idea of a truth-finding commission. They really showed willingness to face the truth .... But there were some elements who fear the very word human rights. Those were a minority, and they are overwhelmed within parliament. They even wanted to stop the human rights training from going ahead.

Q: So there are people who are frightened of their past?

A: Of course! Some of the parliamentarians are known war criminals, people who have committed crimes against humanity. They are part of the parliament, but they are also part of the clan. They are seen as heroes of their own clan and were put forward (to parliament) as such by their chiefs and own traditional leaders. But, in fact, on that day I was happy because I saw that when the truth comes, they can't really stand against it or run away.

Q: There are some groups who see you as more than just an irritation -? like the Islamic Courts.

A: We have had a difficult relationship with the Islamic courts. In May 1997 we stopped the mutilation of limbs in Sheikh Ali Dheere court (north Mogadishu) through strong public pressure. At that time, the Islamic courts in south Mogadishu were established on clan basis. They were more concerned in protecting the clan from the activities of the clan militias. Their jurisdiction did not go beyond the individual clan. I see them more as places where delinquent youngsters are rehabilitated, than as serious courts. They don't have capital punishment and do not amputate limps. We monitor every three months? the conditions of the Islamic court prisons, where they keep the delinquent children (the young gunmen), and issue a report. We see whether they are complying with international standards. Sometimes we offered training in the prisons, and there has been some response. Recently, we have had lively debates in Horn Afrik Radio and television with the court representatives. We both come there and talk about human rights issues.

Q: So who protects you in your work?

A: You must follow certain security precautions. You do not necessarily sleep in north Mogadishu when you produce a Jaam'a Misra report; when you produce a Qoryoley report you do not sleep in southern Mogadishu; when you talk about Musa Sudi's detention of sportsmen you do not need to sleep in Medina. You have to know how to go according to the current report, or the current talk of the town. That's the case in Mogadishu - but now we hope we will be having a permanent place to sleep and relax.

Q: Do you think your work will be different with a new government in place?

A: Before, we were focusing in four major areas which all come under humanitarian law violations - use of excessive force by the militia and factions; killing on the basis of clan; unlawful killing, or revenge; and then rape. Rape targeted a community. When a group of militia captured an enemy town, it would start widespread rape, in order to intimidate and defeat the clan. Then we also used to deal with kidnapping, killing and looting in international organisations, and also abuses against minority communities. It was a very difficult. Now, when we have a government, you will find things turning full circle. Most of the abuses are likely to be of the civil and political rights of the people. So in order to prevent in that we are trying to work very hard ?educating the parliament, educating people, and building on what is already a strong civil society group. We are doing that so that we don't fall backwards in the transitional period to these civil and political rights abuses. We want to stop the vicious circle and start a healthy environment where rights are expected and basic rights are upheld by the government.

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? 2001, UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. All rights reserved.